Curse

LifeInfusion · Aug 31, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Also RC does a hefty heal when it removes conditions and "It's just a flesh wound" just removes them while also having longer recharge and can't target self...

Cautery Signet is like Martyr but superpowered.

Anyhow, all noncore classes don't replace existing classes, they are meant as a new dynamic.

For Factions it was shadow step, lead-offhand-dual combos, weapon spells, and spirits.

Nightfall will be Forms, Echos, Chants, etc.

Arcador · Aug 31, 2006, 08:58 AM // 08:58

The Paragon will make excelent Battle coordinator, since he will be somewhere between the backline and the frontline. He will be able to support and boost his team by indirect shouts, chants and echoes (Almost no targeting needed, only certain ones need that and of course he can do it.) He can focus on the battle view and monitor which player is extended, who is on low, call targets and etc. Keep in mind that not everytime the warrior have to do this and many of the other classes are too much busy already with their off target tasks.

ZenRgy · Aug 31, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Personally, I consider wands almost required for warriors who fulfill the requirements - gives you the option to attack at range when needed. Sometimes it is better for a warrior not to be adjacent to the enemy.

False.

I think it helps for warriors to carry wands / bows, to build up Ardrenaline (For PvP), For PvE, perhaps a bow to pull etc. can help but your ranger / caster in the group should be able to do this.

How many warriors run a build that uses 8+ in a caster attribute?

falling demon · Aug 31, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

P/R with Tiger's Fury, to speed up that spear attack.

i found the R/P premade in the preview event to be pretty good, and i should expect P/R would be too, with Blazing Spear on an R/P you can cause burning for about half the time, very good IMO

Paperfly · Aug 31, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

For PvE, perhaps a bow to pull etc. can help but your ranger / caster in the group should be able to do this.

Bzzt! You are not a competent warrior in PVE unless you carry a longbow and step forward to do the pulling. Unfortunately, not enough people understand how aggro works in this game... Let's just say that even rangers pulling is a subpar choice as the aggro tends to "leapfrog" back to the casters when they move back out of melee range.

Back on topic, I think taking a caster secondary (specced to 9) will be a good choice for most Paragons so as to be able to effectively swap to a wand-and-offhand config for a quick energy boost. I'm quite interested in how it enables a couple of the expensive utility skills - can you honestly say you wouldn't love having someone in your party who can use Aria of Power towards the end of every fight?

Not using spears at all, though? Obviously you'll want to run spears if you're speccing into Command to any extent, since most of the money spells trigger off attack skills and not just attacks (and there's really no point speccing into another kind of weapon class for damage). Motivation is another matter entirely - I can imagine a "defensive chanter" running 11 Leadership, 16 Motivation and (say) 9 Inspiration working fairly well. In practice though, as someone else pointed out, this would probably just be a weaker form of a Heal Party-spamming ele.

I do predict that a PVE paragon who puts more points into Command/Motivation than he does into Spear Mastery will be the most effective build - a kind of mini Orders necro. Unfortunately, that kind of build might not work as well in multiples (or be as independent for PuGs).

Spura · Aug 31, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcador

The Paragon will make excelent Battle coordinator, since he will be somewhere between the backline and the frontline. He will be able to support and boost his team by indirect shouts, chants and echoes (Almost no targeting needed, only certain ones need that and of course he can do it.) He can focus on the battle view and monitor which player is extended, who is on low, call targets and etc. Keep in mind that not everytime the warrior have to do this and many of the other classes are too much busy already with their off target tasks.

Sounds great, but with the current skillset I don't see it happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Cautery Signet is like Martyr but superpowered.

Ok so cautery signet has 15 sec recharge and 2 sec cast, meaning you remove all conditions every 17 sec. Martyr has 10 recharge and 1 sec cast meaning you can remove all conditions every 11 sec. And the fact that all conditions are transfered is more in favor of martyr. Burning is -7 degen anyway(cautery signet) so martyr has to pull poison, bleed and disease to top that. Degen being capped at -10 I don't see much difference. In fact mend ailment will make a handsome heal on marty user. Also martyr will often pull a condition less lethal than burning. Like blind of weakness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

I do predict that a PVE paragon who puts more points into Command/Motivation than he does into Spear Mastery will be the most effective build - a kind of mini Orders necro.

Hm prehaps you could show us one such build, that you would run in your UW group, that uses command and leadership perhaps. And then tell us which character you'd normally use would be replaced by this paragon, so I get a feeling of the role it would have.

You can find skills over at guildwars wiki.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious

Anyone who honestly believes that any class in this game cannot have effective builds utilizing only one attribute from it's primary class is an idiot. You will see many W/P and P/W, and after awhile some really nice builds will be used for them.

The beauty of this game is the strategy that goes into builds. You say Assassin has to use Dagger to be effective? You're truely a fool if you believe that, an Assassin primary can use other weapons and still be quite effective. Of course, you can't use dagger skills without daggers but I mean seriously...

This to me, is like saying "Warrior is useless without Sword" or "Ranger sucks without a bow" they're generalizations that not only make little sense, but also show that you just haven't put enough thought into the skill combos in this game.

Never said ranger sucks without a bow. In fact trapper is quite effective. You are suggesting things like P/W which will I assume use another weapon instead of spear.

So basically you are saying: Paragon won't have to use spear to be effective. He will also be able to use other weapons.

You just confirmed what I said. From your answers I can see most of you agree that a good paragon primary will require a weapon of sorts for some DPS. And I don't like that.

Mordakai · Aug 31, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

OK, last night I took a quick look at the skills on Guildwiki.

First off, I think it's important to note these skills aren't final, and they are by no means (I hope) a complete list of Paragon Skills. So, going into a detailed discussion about the current skills seems kind of pointless.

However, a general discussion involving what players want from a Paragon is very important, and I hope Anet takes note of this if it's not too late.

But from what I've read of the Echo skills, this sounds like it could really have an interesting effect on the game... enough to make a non-spear Paragon? I don't know. But I hope so.

Oh, and if adrenaline is your concern, there's always the Tactic "To the Limit" shout. And who knows, maybe Paragon will get a skill like that as well.

sdrawkcab11 · Aug 31, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

In the preveiw i tried P/W, it was fun to play i used sword and tactics shield and attributes in paragons primary mixed with tactics shouts which made a nice energy boost. Maybe this combination will be used more in the future?

KurtBatz · Aug 31, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

I really doubt paragon will be able to work without it's weapon and weapon attribute, much like assassin.

What, like a critical barrage bleed Assassin/ranger with 16 in criticals, 10 to 12 in Marksmanship for additional criticals, critical eye for even more crits, a bow, sharpen daggers etc? ^^

My bow gives me energy every time I hit. Each time I hit, I almost always crit. Sharpen daggers causes bleeding. Each crit heals me too (forget the name of that spell) Favourable winds on top of that - my assassin is a fricking killing machine. Even managed to leave one spare slot for a pet (black moa) and naturally the healing regen from Deadly Arts ^^

I don't even PLAY my assassin with daggers anymore. It's not even close in terms of effectiveness.

Haggard · Aug 31, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I think a spear will be very useful for paragons because even with say 9 in S.M. they will be able to unleash *fairly* good damage (though nothing compared to if they went 16 S.M. with attack skills obviously), and some sort of weapon is required to fill the adrenaline requirements of several shouts.

A staff would be slow but would provide a good energy boon.
If the most popular paragon build delves into a caster attribute, having 9 in that will open up the possibility of using a focus item, though then you would still need a spear, possibly a wand.

I think if you are planning to simply support with shouts and chants, a +5 spear with +5 armour/+30 hp would be wisest.

sabretalon · Aug 31, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I can see Paragon running teams being used!

Make Haste: For 5...17 seconds, target other ally moves 33% faster. This skill ends if that ally successfully hits with an attack.

Fall Back: For 4...9 seconds, all allies within earshot gain 5...13 Health per second while moving and move 25% faster. "Fall Back!" ends on an ally affected by this Shout when that ally successfully hits with an attack.

Aria of swiftness: For 5...17 seconds, all allies within earshot move 33% faster while under the effects of an Enchantment

A team of 2 paragons will run just about anywhere.

I can also see fire spikes being a big thing during this campaign.

Currently no elite in leadership, so we may have to wait to see what happens there.

I can't really think too much about builds until the list is finalised, personaly I think the Paragon does have plenty to offer, if used as part of a team correctly. I would probably use mine in front of my casters.

Things I'm not sure about is that some shouts/chants effect all your allies but does that also mean they effect you as well?

Clawdius_Talonious · Aug 31, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcador

The Paragon will make excelent Battle coordinator, since he will be somewhere between the backline and the frontline. He will be able to support and boost his team by indirect shouts, chants and echoes (Almost no targeting needed, only certain ones need that and of course he can do it.) He can focus on the battle view and monitor which player is extended, who is on low, call targets and etc. Keep in mind that not everytime the warrior have to do this and many of the other classes are too much busy already with their off target tasks.

^^^
Gets it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

You just confirmed what I said. From your answers I can see most of you agree that a good paragon primary will require a weapon of sorts for some DPS. And I don't like that.

^^^
Doesn't get it

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I probably won't enjoy playing Paragon, I'll make one and see, however... A properly played Paragon will be an asset to a team. You don't see any healing monks doing any more damage than with their wand attacks, do you? Would you then go on to say that Monks are useless party members, because they don't add to your DPS without a weapon?

Moa Bird Cultist · Aug 31, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

That isn't to say that monks cannot be an offensive contributor as well - people dismiss smiting as a gimmick too easily. Smiting hurts high armour mobs extremely well

As for Assassins not being able to live without daggers, I think quite the opposite: You will have your A/Ds disproving that in quite a spectacular style soon enough and A/R and A/W critical barrage/critical triple chop-cyclone axe are perfectly reasonable builds - better than most, if not all dagger based builds for DPS. As for taking Triple chop instead of AoD, AoD isn't the only teleport spell by quite a long way. Also, with alternate teleports, you can be far more unpredictable for your oponents.

Then, the paragon: We'll see paragons in melee for one good reason - the high use of elemental weapons in PvP by warriors. Granted, to date, they only have resistances to 2 out of the 4 primary elements imbubed in their armour. But as it stands, +80 vs physical and +90 vs elemental as standard gives them better melee armour than rangers and the second best elemental defence in the game. Plus, their attack animations look really cool, (although that never helped any of the Rt/W's out there

)

Rancour · Aug 31, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

A Warrior IS useless without a Sword, Axe or Hammer. There's just no reason to give a Warrior a Wand or Daggers.

Trust me, a W/A wit daggers can deal some insane damage in a short spam of time with the use of Flourish... There's a max of 10 seconds between youre spikes, and the first two are instant successive. You get max energy and a full recharge of all Dagger skills when you use Flourish AND the best armor in the game.

True, you can't get 16 in Dagger Mastery or whatever, but I think the damage potential and ability to actually STAY in a fight makes up for that.

Mordakai · Aug 31, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancour

Trust me, a W/A wit daggers can deal some insane damage in a short spam of time with the use of Flourish... There's a max of 10 seconds between youre spikes, and the first two are instant successive. You get max energy and a full recharge of all Dagger skills when you use Flourish AND the best armor in the game.

True, you can't get 16 in Dagger Mastery or whatever, but I think the damage potential and ability to actually STAY in a fight makes up for that.

Will a W/A with Daggers do more DPS than a Sword or Axe Warrior?

I honestly don't know, if someone can prove me wrong, I'll take it back.

Mao Bird Cultist I forgot about criticals for a A/W with Axe or Sword. That could definately up the DPS, but is it enough to cover the loss of 16 in Axe or Sword?

pagansaint · Aug 31, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I read this thread and just shook my head.

Maybe, just maybe, people can find ways for the Paragon's abilities that will synergize well with other classes' abilities in ways we haven't foreseen yet in the Sneak Peek. That there will be new and in all likelyhood, looking at the skills available, radical changes in some Guilds' builds.

Will it happen immediately at release? Yes, to an extent, it should happen due to the fact that people have not gained a feel for the class and the limitations and counters to the way it will work. But will the pinnacle for DPS or Support be used and capitalised upon right away? Hell no.

New builds and strategies arise and become strong just because someone has found a "new" way to build upon and combine different skills and ideas from other builds. Even if it is just a case of timing and strategy of use of existing skill combinations or unexpected combinations used in ways a team isn't prepared for going into a match.

And this doesn't happen over night, this doesn't happen immediately after release of a patch, this sure as hell doesn't happen after all we have to go on is a few days of Sneak Peak.

But then again, who knows, everyone, everywhere, might suffer a case of the stupids and not be able to think of ways to use a Paragon effectively and innovatively.

LifeInfusion · Aug 31, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Ok so cautery signet has 15 sec recharge and 2 sec cast, meaning you remove all conditions every 17 sec. Martyr has 10 recharge and 1 sec cast meaning you can remove all conditions every 11 sec. And the fact that all conditions are transfered is more in favor of martyr. Burning is -7 degen anyway(cautery signet) so martyr has to pull poison, bleed and disease to top that. Degen being capped at -10 I don't see much difference. In fact mend ailment will make a handsome heal on marty user. Also martyr will often pull a condition less lethal than burning. Like blind of weakness.

Cautery signet + mend ailment/mend condition from your protection monk > Martyr because martyr might net you dazed. 7 degen is easier to counter than dazed, blind, disease, poison, etc. because it is one condition versus a stack. Simply casting one condition removal such as Mend ailment will do it, not needing Purge Conditions.

Also it is a signet, so mantra of inscriptions works well.

Spura · Sep 02, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

OK, last night I took a quick look at the skills on Guildwiki.

First off, I think it's important to note these skills aren't final, and they are by no means (I hope) a complete list of Paragon Skills. So, going into a detailed discussion about the current skills seems kind of pointless.

There are 59 skills listed for paragon. We can expect 75 skills so that is 16 extra skills, about half of them elites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But from what I've read of the Echo skills, this sounds like it could really have an interesting effect on the game... enough to make a non-spear Paragon? I don't know. But I hope so.

Echos have their own problem. If we look at the ones that don't renew (non-refrain ones), then a big problem is lack of indicators of presence of echos. There is no way of knowing if people have any echos on, short of people telling you themselves, a thing reserved for top guilds, really. Also with renewable ones, the small range of chants(currently less than aggro range) will cause any players straying to lose echo, without your knowledge. And unless you run a very organised team, this will be a huge problem. People even extend out of monk's range, they are much less likely to try to stay in paragon's range, as his effects are not as directly vital as healing. It will be hell to pug.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Oh, and if adrenaline is your concern, there's always the Tactic "To the Limit" shout. And who knows, maybe Paragon will get a skill like that as well.

0 spec spear will do just fine for adrenaline.

Spura · Sep 02, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious

I probably won't enjoy playing Paragon, I'll make one and see, however... A properly played Paragon will be an asset to a team. You don't see any healing monks doing any more damage than with their wand attacks, do you? Would you then go on to say that Monks are useless party members, because they don't add to your DPS without a weapon?

You seem to be the one who doesn't get it. Monk's healing and protection abilities far outstrip anything paragon can muster support-wise. And because of the power of their abilities, monk can exist as a 0 DPS character. Paragon on the other hand, has too weak support abilities to exist as a 0 DPS character. This was my argument. Also nice of you to characterize a colorful description of paragon class as "gets it". I suggest you buy prima guide. It's the same kind of material, you'll enjoy it.

Paperfly · Sep 03, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Hm prehaps you could show us one such build, that you would run in your UW group, that uses command and leadership perhaps. And then tell us which character you'd normally use would be replaced by this paragon, so I get a feeling of the role it would have.

Dunno how you got from "I predict" to "I have extensively tested and have put together a build that will shake the Guild Wars metagames to their foundation".

Besides, I gave you a perfectly cromulent example - an Orders necro in a Barrage team. The damage math is still up in the air and is obviously untestable at this point, but you've got the following skills that would be useful to a B/P group to whatever extent:

Command:
"Go for the Eyes!"
"Stand Your Ground!"
Anthem of Envy
Song of Purification

Leadership:
Anthem of Flame
Aria of Power

All uses untested and hypothetical.

...The Command skills could fit an existing Orders necro just fine with a Paragon secondary, actually, since they usually have 2-3 "free" slots they can devote to utility spells. They'd require wanding for adrenaline, though.